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BSD from scratch?
Contributed by jose on Fri Jan 10 03:01:00 2003 (GMT)
from the do-it-yourself dept.

anonymous writes:

"I've failed finding the BSD equivalent of 'Linux From Scratch'. A 'BSD From Scratch' e-mail with two replies is archived in MARC; both replies knew not what the person was asking.

So I Ask; does 'BSD From Scratch' exist, if not, what sources would you recommend?"

There are a few projects that kind of do this, but they're usually pared down BSD systems for embedded systems (ie floppy based routers). However, has anyone had a chance to describe how to roll your own BSD system? There are so many free software projects which replace key things (compilers, authentication systems, C libraries) that it should be possible. Anyone done this?

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  it's possible, I guess... (mod -1/11)
by Anonymous Coward on Fri Jan 10 04:00:00 2003 (GMT)
  My question would be, "Why do you want to build it from scratch?" I've noticed in the BSD world everything is modular with very little dependency. Want to have IPF instead of PF in OpenBSD? It's not that much work to replace it.

Want to change libc to glibc... I suppose you could, but why? Not to take away from the glibc people, but the BSD libc works just fine and is more free to me.

I've noticed this about linux. Find something cool and reimplement it ad nausium. The "Free Software" excuse only works until there is a "Free Software" version. Then the job of programmers should be to improve the version that exists. BSD does this. Yes, there are occasionally times when things get ripped out entirely to be replaced with different code, but it's for a good reason. (GEOM in FreeBSD is a good example of this.) The gradual evolution results in a more stable system and better though out changes. (At least when there is going to be gigantic changes the people usually mention that they'd like to improve something and ask if anyone has any ideas.)

Revolutions are great... every once in a while, but they get tiresome when you're trying to keep up. Evolutions work much better. Don't replace entire portions for no good reason. Think it through. Want something to do that doesn't require all that much programming knowledge? Rework OpenBSD's src directory so that it is even more modular. Make everything a package that can be updated periodically via something like portupgrade. That way when a new gcc comes out it's like it is on Redhat or Debian. That's about the only revolution I want right now.
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]
      kavin (0/6) by kavin paker on Mon Jun 6 08:05:50 2016 (GMT)

  Undefined.... (mod 0/12)
by Acheron (acheron@sympatico.ca) on Fri Jan 10 05:17:00 2003 (GMT)
mailto:acheron@sympatico.ca
  BSD from scratch? This is about the most senseless thing I have seen in a while, and it shows the person in question really does not comprehend what he/she is asking.

First of all, what are the components of an O/S? Besides the various utilities and such, which can be selected, compiled, and packaged as necessary, you need the kernel. While Linux-from-scratch works because it shares a common codebase, the BSD world is completely different.

BSD projects more closely combine work in userland with that of the kernel, it is a much close-knit development model. So, the idea of a generic 'BSD" system is actually senseless. You can fork off of any of the BSD systems you want, as some of them have actually forked off of each other, but the idea of a 'roll-your-own' bsd is not as simple as the poster thinks.
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]
      kavin (0/6) by kavin paker on Mon Jun 6 08:03:52 2016 (GMT)

  WTF! (mod 1/11)
by fluffy bunnie (grifter@fuckmicrosoft.com) on Fri Jan 10 05:39:00 2003 (GMT)
mailto:grifter@fuckmicrosoft.com
  i am going to have to agree with these guys, this is nonsense. one of the many reasons i switched to using *bsd instead of linux, is because of the silly amount of linux distro's. I hope this never happens to bsd... I think FreeBSD OpenBSD and NetBSD are perfect, people should help support these groups, and not roll their own.

I mean what more can you ask for, you want robust webservers, mail servers dns etc, or something of the sort, HRMMM order me a FreeBSD! you want BSD on your toaster? toilet? tv? sneakers? windmills? watch? HRM order me NetBSD! You want to be so anal about security that you trust not even your own grandmother by DNA match, HRMMM order me OpenBSD. What else is there? am I missing something?

Also note each and all of these can be used for all of the tasks mentioned i'm sure, i just labeled them as I use them for my own needs.
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]
      Re: WTF! (-2/8) by Anonymous Coward on Fri Jan 10 07:54:00 2003 (GMT)

  Wha? (mod 1/11)
by RC on Fri Jan 10 05:58:00 2003 (GMT)
  As everyone has said, this is a ridiculous question.

Want OpenBSD from Scratch?

cd /usr/src && make

Done and done.

  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]
      Re: Wha? (1/7) by Anonymous Coward on Fri Jan 10 08:39:00 2003 (GMT)

  LFS was interesting ... (mod 2/12)
by Jeffrey on Fri Jan 10 06:07:00 2003 (GMT)
  ... if for no other reason than as a learning tool.

I did it for a while when I wanted to poke my brain and
see what it could do ;)

Frankly, I would not do LFS (Linux-From-Scratch) again.
Time is too valuable. Plus, I'll never use Linux again.
Why would I..? There is OpenBSD and NetBSD, both of
which are perfect.

Upgrades with LFS (or any Linux system)..? Not nearly
as simple and painless as doing a `make build'..
The BSDs are the only way to go for me.
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

  Not really... (mod -1/13)
by Anonymous Coward on Fri Jan 10 07:23:00 2003 (GMT)
  BSD does not have a "Unified Kernel".. Where different Linux distributions typically operate off a similar (if not identical) stock kernel, the BSD's have branched off in this area.

"BSD From Scratch" would mean you grabbing a 4.4 BSD kernel and building what you want on top of it. Otherwise do a CVS checkout and learn about make release.

  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

  BSD from Scratch? (mod 4/14)
by Anonymous Coward on Fri Jan 10 07:39:00 2003 (GMT)
  Get 4.4BSD-Lite and MACH 3.0 source, mix together and stir. Have fun and let us know how it goes.

Or go play with xMACH. ( http://smokeping.planetmirror.com/pub/xmach/ )

Or, get OpenBSD source, make, move files around to a CD or another system, configure and boot. How's that.

Or, Get 386BSD code, and make it run.

Or get Darwin from Apple and try to make it work on your system.

Get the picture...
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

  BSD is Free Unix (mod -3/11)
by Anonymous Coward on Fri Jan 10 11:57:00 2003 (GMT)
  Do what you want with it! Will it pull the world
into a downward spiral of devolution? Hardly!
Have fun!
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

  BSD from scratch? (mod 4/12)
by mnemonic (mnemonic at mail dot be) on Fri Jan 10 16:02:00 2003 (GMT)
mailto:mnemonic at mail dot be
  If you want to build a "BSD from scratch" you should read (modify) the Makefiles and sort what is in /usr/obj and after, read the release(8) manpage.
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

  See MicroBSD (mod 0/12)
by Anonymous Coward on Fri Jan 10 17:36:00 2003 (GMT)
http://www.microbsd.net
  Just swing over to MicroBSDs site and look at what they have been up to. A hardened minimized OpenBSD fork, with code from Net/FreeBSD merged back in. Looks like they are attempting to unify the BSD world into a small flexible distribution while integrated the finest features from all BSDs into one. They are also assing alot of ACL security COde the even OpenBSD doesnt have yet. A bit cutting egde.
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

  See MicroBSD (mod -3/13)
by Anonymous Coward on Fri Jan 10 17:37:00 2003 (GMT)
http://www.microbsd.net
  Just swing over to MicroBSDs site and look at what they have been up to. A hardened minimized OpenBSD fork, with code from Net/FreeBSD merged back in. Looks like they are attempting to unify the BSD world into a small flexible distribution while integrated the finest features from all BSDs into one. They are also adding alot of ACL security Code the even OpenBSD doesnt have yet. A bit cutting egde.
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

  No Subject Given (mod 0/12)
by Anonymous Coward on Fri Jan 10 22:42:00 2003 (GMT)
  "So I Ask; does 'BSD From Scratch' exist, if not, what sources would you recommend?"

A simple question, yet only 14% of the comments so far address it with a relevant reply. Shame, shame...
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

  UNIX from scratch (mod 0/10)
by John Kennedy on Sat Jan 11 18:59:00 2003 (GMT)
  I've done UNIX froms scratch in a linux environment in the sense that I rolled and maintained my own personal/work distro for 3+ years. As an educational exercise, it is excellent. It is a huge time committment to do it for real and do it properly.

One of the reasons I'm working with OpenBSD now is that I didn't want the huge time-suck anymore and I was looking for a project that was security motivated (above and beyond just "secure").

If you do it from scratch, you will be reinventing the wheel a lot. Once you achieve a certain critical mass, it will be hard to do a good job relative to other projects with more people.

If you get too detailed, you're also going to discover the modular joys of chicken-&-egg dependencies. X needs TCL/TK to compile, TCL/TK needs X is one thing won't even come close to everything you would see.

Again, as an educational experience, go for it. You'll probably find it is more product to join in on a collaberative project that suits your needs and help them out to everyone's mutual benefit.
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

  One of the great things about NetBSD... (mod -1/13)
by Anonymous Peon on Mon Jan 13 06:55:00 2003 (GMT)
  ...is that it's very friendly about cross-compiling, building small, personalized releases, and so forth.

To do "BSD from scratch" in any useful fashion, you need to work backwards- take a full install, cut it down to exactly what you need (again, I'm positing that NetBSD makes this easiest, by virtue of their design goals; it's doable with Open and Free, but NetBSD makes the best training wheel for it), and add/build appropriate packages to put on top.
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

  No Subject Given (mod 1/13)
by Lars Hansson (lars@unet.net.ph) on Tue Jan 14 14:12:00 2003 (GMT)
mailto:lars@unet.net.ph
  "BSD from scratch" is what you get when you compile from the sources. Really.
The reason there's LFS is that Linux has a different distribution model. There are a multitude of distributions that does the same thing, only slightly different.
With BSD you always get it from scratch, so to speak. There are no (or at least very, very few) different distributions so the need isn't there.

  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

  No Subject Given (mod 1/11)
by zam4ever on Fri Jul 11 23:37:00 2003 (GMT)
http://www.freebsd.org
  As I know you can do a customized picoBSD from the FreeBSD source code. So, here, the BSD From Scratch will apply... Take a look around and start digging the code..

cheers
  [ Show thread ] [ Reply to this comment ] [ Mod Up ] [ Mod Down ]

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